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Id: 125878
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Queue: Tcl-pTk

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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:28:00 +0200
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To: bug-Tcl-pTk [...] rt.cpan.org
From: claudio claudio <welleozean [...] googlemail.com>
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Hello, first of all thank you for the tcl::pTk module and for actively supporting it. This is probably not a bug, but installation fails on a macOS (using Perlbrew), because the module Sub::Name is missing. After installing separately this module, the installation of tcl::pTk works fine. Maybe this could be fixed (probably it is the reason it fails by the testers?). An idea: why not create a mailing list or similar to share ideas/problems working with this module? Best, welle
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Hi Welle, thanks for writing in.

On Wed Jul 18 05:28:09 2018, welleozean@googlemail.com wrote:
Show quoted text
> This is probably not a bug, but installation fails on a macOS (using Perlbrew), because the module Sub::Name is missing. After installing separately this module, the installation of tcl::pTk works fine. Maybe this could be fixed (probably it is the reason it fails by the testers?).

There was a issue reported a couple years ago (RT #116432) where Sub::Name was missing from the list of needed dependencies; the code was fixed rightaway, but was only recently released in Tcl::pTk 0.93.

I'm not familiar with Perlbrew (I've used MacPorts primarily), but I would imagine that the underlying cpan/cpanm command can be used find and install any Perl dependencies if it doesn't do so automatically.


Show quoted text
> An idea: why not create a mailing list or similar to share ideas/problems working with this module?

I recently found out about the tcltk@perl.org mailing list through Vadim Konovalov (maintainer of Tcl.pm and Tcl::Tk); he says it is open to use for any Perl modules related to Tcl/Tk (Tcl.pm, Tcl::Tk, Tcl::pTk, and Tkx). I need to check the documentation for Tcl::pTk and add mention of it if there isn't one.
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On Wed Jul 18 05:28:09 2018, welleozean@googlemail.com wrote:
Show quoted text
> probably it is the reason it fails by the testers?

I haven't looked at all the tester's reports but most have "unknown" results because those might not have Tcl/Tk installed. The 3 failure reports have Tcl/Tk but fail during tests, some of which have issues already reported.

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From: claudio claudio <welleozean [...] googlemail.com>
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Hi Christopher, thank you again for putting new life into this module (greatest tk module for macOS)! Nice to know that the missing module has being fixed in the new release (I am still using 0.92, but will soon update it). I do not know if the tcltk@perl.org mailing list is the right place for what I was thinking of, as it seems to be mostly related to bugs, changes in the code, etc, i.e. for maintainers or very advanced users. I was thinking more about a place where to share best practices, ask for questions, etc. targeting more the average user. If not a mailing list, maybe a small forum, or something like this. I think this would contribute to more exposure for this module which - as I believe - is for the macOS world maybe the best available solution to create modern Tk UI using Perl. Or probably it could be extended to all the aspects around this module, such as Tcl frameworks, widget differences between perl/tk and tcl/tk through tcl::pTk (for example now I am using ttkButton instead of Button as it gives a more native look to the UI, but I do not know if every user would come to this idea), and much more. Being the module actively maintained now, I guess some people may find it useful. If you think it could be of any use, I could try to put something online myself. Best, Welle 2018-07-19 2:05 GMT+02:00 Christopher Alexander Chavez via RT < bug-Tcl-pTk@rt.cpan.org>: Show quoted text
> <URL: https://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125878 > > > Hi Welle, thanks for writing in. > > On Wed Jul 18 05:28:09 2018, welleozean@googlemail.com wrote:
> > This is probably not a bug, but installation fails on a macOS (using
> Perlbrew), because the module Sub::Name is missing. After installing > separately > this module, the installation of tcl::pTk works fine. Maybe this could be > fixed > (probably it is the reason it fails by the testers?). > > There was a issue reported a couple years ago (RT #116432) where Sub::Name > was > missing from the list of needed dependencies; the code was fixed > rightaway, but > was only recently released in Tcl::pTk 0.93. > > I'm not familiar with Perlbrew (I've used MacPorts primarily), but I would > imagine that the underlying cpan/cpanm command can be used find and > install any > Perl dependencies if it doesn't do so automatically. > >
> > An idea: why not create a mailing list or similar to share ideas/problems
> working with this module? > > I recently found out about the tcltk@perl.org mailing list through Vadim > Konovalov (maintainer of Tcl.pm and Tcl::Tk); he says it is open to use > for any > Perl modules related to Tcl/Tk (Tcl.pm, Tcl::Tk, Tcl::pTk, and Tkx). I > need to > check the documentation for Tcl::pTk and add mention of it if there isn't > one. > >
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On Thu Jul 19 04:11:51 2018, welleozean@googlemail.com wrote:
Show quoted text
> I do not know if the tcltk@perl.org mailing list is the right place for what I was thinking of, as it seems to be mostly related to bugs, changes in the code, etc, i.e. for maintainers or very advanced users. I was thinking more about a place where to share best practices, ask for questions, etc. targeting more the average user.

There has been quite a bit of dev-related traffic on the list recently, but I assure you there are user-related questions there as well. I will still ask if it's a good idea to have separate lists for user- and dev-related threads. 
For anything I think is definitely a bug, I'm inclined to go straight to RT to open a ticket.

> If not a mailing list, maybe a small forum, or something like this. I think this would contribute to more exposure for this module which - as I believe - is for the macOS world maybe the best available solution to create modern Tk UI using Perl.

Indeed I've noticed that many of this module's other active users are also trying to get Perl/Tk programs working on macOS aqua. It would be nice to have something more centralized for discussing it so we all know what's going on. Or, if there's a question or thread posted somewhere, that it at least gets mentioned on that central forum so other users are then aware. I'm not sure what the best way of doing this would be.

At the moment users including myself have resorted to 
very busy platforms like StackOverflow and Perlmonks because that's been where to ask those who (1) are knowledgeable about all things Perl (though not necessarily Tcl::pTk) or (2) will give answers quickly.

Those sites are not without issues; I'm particularly concerned about friendliness to new members.

And since StackOverflow doesn't yet have a dedicated tag for Tcl::pTk, nor does 
Perlmonks seems to have a "subscribe to topic" feature at all, I will have to manually remind myself to manually search those sites for any Tcl::pTk-related questions on a regular basis, since I'm not constantly on them. This evening I managed to reply to a few questions on those sites, but I wish I was aware of them when they were first asked a month or two ago, so that others would've been aware of what were already issues I had reported on RT and not needlessly spent time investigating.

There's also the 
tcl-mac@lists.sourceforge.net mailing list for any upstream Tcl/Tk on Mac questions. It hasn't gotten much traffic in the past few years, so maybe there's other avenues for assistance that other users have taken instead.

Another related effort will be to modernize the repository used by Tcl::pTk and have it listed by metaCPAN.org. Currently there's an SVN repository on Sourceforge, but migrating to Git and then having the repository at least mirrored on other platforms like GitHub should help in terms of visibility.

Show quoted text
> Or probably it could be extended to all the aspects around this module, such as Tcl frameworks, widget differences between perl/tk and tcl/tk through tcl::pTk (for example now I am using ttkButton instead of Button as it gives a more native look to the UI, but I do not know if every user would come to this idea), and much more. Being the module actively maintained now, I guess some people may find it useful.

This could probably go well either in the documentation for Tcl::pTk, or in a Wiki of some sort. Maybe adding screenshots for comparison and detailing any differences in what's available in Tcl/Tk 8.5.9 (which is what recent macOS includes) and 8.6.8 (the latest version available).



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From: welle Ozean <welleozean [...] googlemail.com>
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Thank you for your answer. Yes, it would be nice to have a place where we could share experiences and working examples using tcl::pTk on a Mac (I guess it is the OS for which this module is VERY interesting). For now it is all a "try out" experience. Since I am working on a big project porting a Tk application to macOS with tcl::pTk I have collected a lot of experience which would be nice to pass over, and to learn from other (more experienced) users, of course. The fact that tcl::pTk has gone some way noticed in the past (I assume it by the low number of questions on the web) makes difficult to use perlmonks and other general Perl platforms (of course I will ask questions there too). If you have any ideas, I'll be happy to help. 2018-07-20 7:12 GMT+02:00 Christopher Alexander Chavez via RT < bug-Tcl-pTk@rt.cpan.org>: Show quoted text
> <URL: https://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=125878 > > > On Thu Jul 19 04:11:51 2018, welleozean@googlemail.com wrote:
> > I do not know if the tcltk@perl.org mailing list is the right place for
> what > I was thinking of, as it seems to be mostly related to bugs, changes in the > code, etc, i.e. for maintainers or very advanced users. I was thinking more > about a place where to share best practices, ask for questions, etc. > targeting > more the average user. > > There has been quite a bit of dev-related traffic on the list recently, > but I > assure you there are user-related questions there as well. I will still > ask if > it's a good idea to have separate lists for user- and dev-related threads. > For > anything I think is definitely a bug, I'm inclined to go straight to RT to > open > a ticket. >
> > If not a mailing list, maybe a small forum, or something like this. I
> think > this would contribute to more exposure for this module which - as I > believe - > is for the macOS world maybe the best available solution to create modern > Tk UI > using Perl. > > Indeed I've noticed that many of this module's other active users are also > trying to get Perl/Tk programs working on macOS aqua. It would be nice to > have > something more centralized for discussing it so we all know what's going > on. > Or, if there's a question or thread posted somewhere, that it at least gets > mentioned on that central forum so other users are then aware. I'm not sure > what the best way of doing this would be. > > At the moment users including myself have resorted to very busy platforms > like > StackOverflow and Perlmonks because that's been where to ask those who (1) > are > knowledgeable about all things Perl (though not necessarily Tcl::pTk) or > (2) > will give answers quickly. > > Those sites are not without issues; I'm particularly concerned about > friendliness to new members. > > And since StackOverflow doesn't yet have a dedicated tag for Tcl::pTk, nor > does > Perlmonks seems to have a "subscribe to topic" feature at all, I will have > to > manually remind myself to manually search those sites for any > Tcl::pTk-related > questions on a regular basis, since I'm not constantly on them. This > evening I > managed to reply to a few questions on those sites, but I wish I was aware > of > them when they were first asked a month or two ago, so that others would've > been aware of what were already issues I had reported on RT and not > needlessly > spent time investigating. > > There's also the tcl-mac@lists.sourceforge.net mailing list for any > upstream > Tcl/Tk on Mac questions. It hasn't gotten much traffic in the past few > years, > so maybe there's other avenues for assistance that other users have taken > instead. > > Another related effort will be to modernize the repository used by > Tcl::pTk and > have it listed by metaCPAN.org. Currently there's an SVN repository on > Sourceforge, but migrating to Git and then having the repository at least > mirrored on other platforms like GitHub should help in terms of visibility. >
> > Or probably it could be extended to all the aspects around this module,
> such > as Tcl frameworks, widget differences between perl/tk and tcl/tk through > tcl::pTk (for example now I am using ttkButton instead of Button as it > gives a > more native look to the UI, but I do not know if every user would come to > this > idea), and much more. Being the module actively maintained now, I guess > some > people may find it useful. > > This could probably go well either in the documentation for Tcl::pTk, or > in a > Wiki of some sort. Maybe adding screenshots for comparison and detailing > any > differences in what's available in Tcl/Tk 8.5.9 (which is what recent macOS > includes) and 8.6.8 (the latest version available). > >
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On Fri Jul 20 00:12:25 2018, CAC wrote:
Show quoted text
> On Thu Jul 19 04:11:51 2018, welleozean@googlemail.com wrote:
> > I do not know if the tcltk@perl.org mailing list is the right place for what
> > I was thinking of, as it seems to be mostly related to bugs, changes in the
> > code, etc, i.e. for maintainers or very advanced users. I was thinking more
> > about a place where to share best practices, ask for questions, etc. targeting
> > more the average user.
>
> There has been quite a bit of dev-related traffic on the list recently,
> but I assure you there are user-related questions there as well.
> I will still ask if it's a good idea to have separate lists for user- and
> dev-related threads.

In case you haven't already seen, here was the response from Vadim (https://www.mail-archive.com/tcltk@perl.org/msg00743.html
):

All users welcome here, separate list is not possible under perl.org address,  but the current one is good enough for both developers and user.



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